Internal Consideration Again
KATE I have just spoken with my daughter. I have said the wrong things and now she is very angry with me. I feel so helpless to put things right. I have put her in a position of having to defend her partner. I don't know what to do, there seems to be nothing I can do.
WB You could apologize.
KATE I don't have any problem doing this and did say I was sorry several times. But we can't make the other person accept our apology.
KATE After reading about i.c. and sleeping on it. I think I'm doing the same here. I feel bad because I've said something about my true feelings. I feel bad because they hurt my daughter but it's really her partner that is creating the problem, not me. Of course this doesn't stop me feeling sorry about the whole thing.
WB My guess is that this again has to do with not taking complete responsibility (ic). You interfered but you do/did not completely assume the consequences of your interfering. There can't be that special unpleasant feeling (neither during the act nor afterwards) when you interfere and take all your responsibilities for doing that. (In such a situation, when someone else is angry, it's probably better most times to just keep quiet and wait for a more relaxed situation to convey something.)
When interfering make sure you interfere on what (s)he does and not for what (s)he is. that makes it easier to assume the consequences.
KATE And you are right. When I re-read what I had written I could see this, I did not take full responsibility.
WB Concerning this situation, (concerning your part of the cake) do you admit that you did/said something wrong and sincerely regretted it ? Did you completely pardon/apologize yourself, too?
KATE Yes I did.
However I still felt bad and I realize now that I was holding onto blame - not taking full responsibility. So now I want to do it again, say sorry, but I think this is for me more than her. I have to leave it at the present anyway because I know she doesn't want to talk about it.
WB Yes, good idea. Maybe some time in future you can share with her your new understanding.
Did you completely pardon/apologize yourself, too ?
KATE No I didn't.
I think I have done so now.
WB Good.
KATE The opportunity arose and so I did tell her that I was truly sorry with no buts or exceptions. I'm unsure if this made her feel better but it certainly helped me.
WB That's the most important. she probably needs time to "digest" .
KATE I don't know that I can explain to her what I doing, even in the future. Maybe, but for now I feel its enough that I am doing it for myself.
WB I agree.
WB Take some minutes and go mentally and emotionally through the same situation and watch how it would have been different with you taking full responsibility.
Tell me if you succeeded doing this.
KATE It was the "I'm sorry I was angry but..." that started it. If I had been taking full responsibility there would have been no argument with my daughter in the first place. If I needed to say sorry, I could have just said I'm sorry I did this or that, being specific. Saying I was angry brought in blame right from the beginning even without my justifying it with the but... which only made it worse.
WB Right, I agree (to all you wrote in the last paragraph).
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KATE Writing now in the morning, I am feeling very sad. I cannot be all friendly with someone if I am feeling angry with them, regardless of whether my anger is justified.
WB This also has to do with internal/external consideration (ic and ec). Once you know how to no more allow internal consideration to be created in your nervous system, you can be friendly with someone you're angry with. ic (re)creates, maintains separation between you and the other; ec. does the contrary.
KATE It seems very strange to me, to be friendly with someone you're angry with. When I've read the book perhaps it will be clearer.
WB Maybe it already helps what I've written in this mail.
When you're angry, be angry for what the other does and not for what he is. Keep contact with the other inside yourself whatsoever happens even if you never (want to) see him again. On the deepest level, we humans are all linked to each other.
KATE Yes it has.
"when you're angry, be angry for what the other does and not for what he is. I can see that this is very important. And that is why you can act ok with them. You are not angry with them but with what happened.
WB Yes, that's it. The I-you separation is a fiction that humans create and re-create, especially by expressing generalized negativity. It is not real.
It's fine to be angry for what someone does (especially in educating children) but after the anger we need to come back to the level on which we are not different from him/her.
KATE Ok, I understand.
WB Good.
KATE I can see where I did this in the recent argument (after the fact). I took the incident and made a generalization from it.
WB Make sure to keep that in mind, let it become it a "reminding factor" (Ouspensky book) to stay with facts and to reject generalizations in such situations.
KATE I will try to keep it in mind. I think feeling angry will give me warning bells to watch why I am feeling this way, and whether my anger is because of something specific or the person.
WB Yes, and: keep the choice of expressing your anger or not (i.e. keeping it to yourself); keep the choice of expressing it right away or later.
KATE Ok I will keep this in mind. I rarely get what I would call angry but I do get annoyed so I will try keeping this to myself.
WB Yes, they are on the same logical level.
KATE Your comments on ic has helped me enormously. (Thank you.) And although I would have rather not have had it, the arguments over the previous week-end have helped to clarify where I am going wrong.
WB Okay
Self Remembering (s.r.)
WB Self remembering (s.r.)
After having read Ouspensky's book, especially the passages on s.r.; tell me how you understand s.r. and refer to self observation during the last 24 hours of your daily life.
KATE With regard to self-remembering, I read about this in the Ouspensky book but I don't really understand what is involved. Could you please explain how I go about this. Thank you.
WB Please read everything on sr in the Ouspensky book (there's also an index); also, re-read the "rocky" chats I sent you as attached file. Try to get an idea of what sr could mean. Then tell me how you understand sr.
KATE My understanding of self-remembering is being aware of all parts of oneself - what one's thinking, feeling, doing, plus being aware that one is aware.
WB This is not yet sr. most people go through this when they are on their way to discover sr.
KATE Ok, I think this is probably the case with me.
KATE Many years ago (perhaps 10 years) I read a book called Awareness by Anthony De Mello. This book really impressed me. Although I forgot much of what was in the book (I never remember detail), it made me want to wake up. And one of the things that I started to do was to be aware of myself. I started to watch my thoughts, my emotions, how I acted. Not all the time of course but when I remembered. The more I tried to remember to do this, the more I did it. I think at some point over the years I became aware of myself watching.
I don't do this all the time, I sometimes get lost in thought or when I'm programming, or I may get lost in a book or film but much of the time I'm aware of my thoughts and feelings and I'm aware that I'm aware.
WB That sounds great. All this is very helpful in discovering what sr is about.
WB Here is something on sr by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh: George Gurdjieff used a particular technique just like this. He called it self-remembering. He said that whenever you are knowing something, always remember the knower. Don't forget it in the object. Remember the subject.
Just now you are listening to me. When you are listening to me, you can listen in two ways. One: your mind can be focused towards me - then you forget the listener. Then the speaker is known but the listener is forgotten.
Gurdjieff said that while listening, know the speaker and also know the listener. Your knowledge must be double-arrowed, pointing to two points - the knower and the known. It must not only flow in one direction towards the object. It must flow simultaneously towards two directions - the known and the knower. This he called self-remembering.
Looking at a flower, also remember the one who is looking. Difficult, because if you do try it, if you try to be aware of the knower, you will forget the rose. You have become so fixed to one direction that it will take time. If you become aware of the knower, then the known will be forgotten. If you become aware of the known, then the knower will be forgotten.
But a little effort, and by and by you can be aware of both simultaneously. And when you become capable of being aware of both, this Gurdjieff calls self-remembering. This is one of the oldest techniques that Buddha used, and Gurdjieff again introduced it to the western world.
Buddha called it samyak smriti - right-mindfulness. He said that your mind is not in a right-mindfulness if it knows only one point. It must know both. And then a miracle happens: if you are aware of both the known and the knower, suddenly you become the third - you are neither. Just by endeavoring to be aware of both the known and the knower, you become the third, you become a witness. A third possibility arises immediately - a witnessing
Self comes into being - because how can you know both? If you are the knower, then you remain fixed to one point. In self-remembering you shift from the fixed point of the knower. Then the knower is your mind and the known is the world, and you become a third point, a consciousness, a witnessing self.
(You may do this reading my mails, and other people's mails, too.
When reading, remember the reader. The reader and what is read are equally important, on the same level.)
KATE Thank you for explaining this to me.
I do seem to be doing this already. Is it possible or have I got mixed up?
WB Let's test if you do this already:
Does it (what you live already) fit to all I said on sr in the rocky chats, to all you read in the Ouspensky book and to what Rajneesh said?
KATE I am unsure, I would need to read though everything again and check.
WB Okay.
KATE However the very fact that I am unsure indicates to me that it is not the
case.
WB Right now, looking at the screen, is there a difference between you and the computer?
KATE Yes there is. I do feel connected by the fact that I am looking at the
screen but there is definitely a difference.
WB Now, just for a few seconds, shift your perception to "no difference".
Please tell me what happened.
KATE I couldn't do this. The closest I could come was that the computer and I were together in a sort of bubble.
WB Do you know that you're doing it when you do it?
KATE Yes.
WB Good.
WB Do you do it all the time?
KATE No, sometimes I forget.
WB There is a difference between sr when you're on your own and when you're with people:
When you're on your own, use all the information you have already from reading and personal experience.
When you're with someone then sr is external consideration (ec). No need to check for undivided attention and all the rest. But the moment you're back on your own, make sure that you're in sr.
KATE Ok, I will do this.
This morning on my walk/jog I was thinking about sr and it came to me what may have been helping me establish this. [… For about 7 years] I've taken my walks on the beach. I've gone through many stages of thinking things through and having insights during these walks. A while ago I noticed that when I got lost in thought, I couldn't hear the sea. I wanted to stay aware and so I started trying to hear the sea all the time I was walking. At the same time I would watch my thoughts and check my body. To start with I would go for long periods when I forgot to listen to the sea. Over time the periods reduced and now I listen to the sea most of the time with only short spaces when I forget. Of course this only works when I'm alone or at least when I'm not in a conversation.
WB Yes, and it is not needed when you're with someone.
Make sure you're aware of the sound of the waves and of yourself walking simultaneously.
KATE Yes, I am aware of my thoughts, feelings and bodily movement at the same time as the sound of the waves. I can 'hear' my thoughts at the same time as the waves. However sometimes I get caught up in my thinking and forget everything else. I go on automatic pilot as far as walking is concerned and do not notice anything external until I suddenly remember myself again.
WB That's good and normal. Don't try too hard. The more you are at ease the better. Learning sr is done using "effortless effort".
WB When you wake up in the morning, remember sr immediately, and before falling
asleep, let your last thought be sr.
KATE Ok I did this last night but because sr is a conscious thing for me I could not go to sleep until I stopped doing it. I remembered first thing this morning.
WB Sr is a conscious thing but it is not state related. Sr can be done when you're drowsy, sleepy, even when you have severe pain. …
You won't suffer anymore from having pain, and you won't fear having pain.
KATE This shows that I am a long way from doing it properly yet. I know that it is possible for people to 'externalize' themselves so that even though their body is in pain they don't suffer from it. I have tried to view myself from a distance when the pain has been bad but without success, at these times I cannot control my thinking.
WB Sr has nothing to do with what you describe. All that can be told and taught on sr is not sr; exercises are meant to approach sr from different angles. Eventually something falls into place which is sr, and you might not even be able in the beginning to know that it is/was sr. Please don't try to 'externalize' anymore when you have pain; that would not be helpful in our context. … (continued lower down re pain)
KATE Because of my lack of experience with sr (possibly technique too), it's still very much a manual operation for me. I forget to do it when I'm tired. However I will continue trying to do it as I fall asleep and also when I awake.
WB Okay, in "effortless effort" mode.
KATE Ok I understand.
KATE I was wondering if my technique is wrong because it just feels ordinary to me, just being aware of internal and external at the same time. It doesn't feel 'special', as it seems to be for others.
WB It's not yet sr. It's part of what leads to it. It's good that this part of it is easy for you to do.
KATE Ok I understand, I'll continue with what I'm doing.
WB Good. Please note that sr goes hand in hand with no ic.
KATE Ok. So from my understanding I do various exercises which will prepare me for sr - then when I'm ready it just happens. I'm ok with that.
WB Okay.
(A few days later)
KATE Something happened this morning that I wanted to share with you. It is only small but it got me all excited. On my way back from my walk I was walking through some long grass just before my house. I was concentrating on where I was walking when suddenly I felt 'in the moment' - all that existed was this next step I was taking, and the next - no past, no future. It was only 3 or 4 steps but it felt wonderful.
WB It is possible that this was a glimpse of sr.
KATE Well, whatever it was I hope it drops in again, it would be made very welcome.
WB Usually this doesn't repeat, it's different every time. And it would be useless to try to re-create it. It's a result of correct work on yourself. It would be necessary that you tell me whenever you observe something which is out of normal experience (pleasant or unpleasant or neutral).
(A few days later)
KATE My current version of sr (internal/external) has become more constant. Sometimes I feel distant from other people, not a part of the conversation. Sometimes I find myself thinking "what they're saying is false". Not that it is lying, but that it is a false front. For example someone is re-telling something and they are laughing but the laughter is put-on. I'm not sure if this makes sense.
WB Yes, it makes sense. I call this "incongruence". It's part of good work on oneself to become able to detect those in others as well as in oneself.
KATE I know I watch myself more and find that I now have less to contribute to a conversation. I have never been a very social chatty type of person but now I seem to be withdrawing more.
WB That's a good sign. Not that it will necessarily remain like this forever, but as you're focusing on essential issues it's normal.
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WB When pain is there, the first thing to do from now on is accept, accept, accept. Immediately when pain arises, after accepting it's presence, check where exactly is pain localized and where is it not. Try to "see" and/or "feel" the boundaries of the pain area and do everything to keep it localized; be conscious of the parts of the body where there is no pain, for example the feet when migraine is happening.
Then, name the pain: what kind of pain is it: .... (as detailed as possible). The overall objective here is to not to let pain become (falsely) generalized. It must be kept local. Try to keep it there where if first shows.
Do never allow the pain to invade you whole nervous system. ("I have pain" instead of "I am pain".) Accept when having strong pain that you temporarily cannot function properly anymore.
KATE I will try. I know that when the pain is bad I don't accept it.
WB Start accepting it when it's not (yet) too bad.
KATE It is only when it is very bad that I don't except it. On other occasions I do accept it.
WB Whenever there's pain, that's a great occasion to do sr. Sr has to do with detachment, and detachment starts with accepting. This is the first thing to do when there's pain (it could be any kind of pain, psychological or physical). The first reflex usually is to not accept, which may manifest in self-pity, rejecting responsibility to someone else or an object, blaming the outside, becoming irritated or angry etc.
WB How do you know that you don't accept the "bad" pain?
KATE I beg for it to go away (sometimes out loud). Once it was so bad that I thought I was going to die, I accepted that I would die and just wanted it to happen so that the pain would stop. Now I know that I won't die from it but I want time to pass, I want the pain to stop, I want the terrible retching to go away. (Luckily I only get these about every 6 months.)
WB What happens when you don't accept?
KATE Nothing really, the pain stays the same. I don't blame anyone, not God for example or myself, but I do feel sorry for myself and I hate anyone to see me like this not even my partner. There is nothing anyone can do to help me.
WB Next time pain arises, do you think it's possible to not to feel sorry for yourself (I think this is the same as self-pity), and accept that someone might see you and accept that nothing can be done to help you?
KATE It may be possible, I will try.
WB It would be great to succeed with this. No pity with self-pity :) self pity creates separation. succeeding to stay "clean" may also open the way for endorphins which are kind of painkillers produced by your own organism.
And accept that someone might see you and accept that nothing can be done to help you?
KATE I already accept this. I am often seen and I accept what help my partner can give me (usually a cold wet towel, which does help a little).
WB Good.
KATE Can you help me with how exactly I recognize self-pity. I know I would not have to beg for the pain to go away but what else. I already try to relax and breath 'into' the pain. Is this enough?
WB I think it's better not to do this unless it happens spontaneously. Just observe and let the body do what it does.
KATE I will try and concentrate on other areas of my body, although I know this will be very difficult.
WB That is not exactly what I suggested. Just be aware of (not concentrate on) and/or remember the parts of the body that are without pain (in effortless effort mode).
KATE Ok thanks for clarifying this.
WB In the first place of course there should always be deep acceptance of the pain as long as it present. Remember constantly - when pain is there - that it is a temporary phenomenon and that eventually it stops.
KATE Yes. I'm not sure until it happens of course but having talked about it I think I may be able to do this [ accept the pain] now.
WB As a mental preparation, relax immediately physically whenever you think of future pain. And when pain arises, relax into it, in acceptance. That doesn't mean to not to take the imigran. But as it lasts one hour to have an effect, during this time you can learn acceptance. Acceptance (without self-pity or blaming anyone or life) is the only resource we have as long as there's no solution.
KATE I know I said I feel sorry for myself but I'm finding it hard to define exactly in what way I do this (apart from the begging).
WB It's a special kind of an introverted feeling when not accepting something. Children may "like" to indulge in self-pity when something is unpleasant and nothing can be done to get it better. It can be contextualized (concerns special situations) or generalized (overall interpretation of life) it's complaining about one's fate, feeling of being disadvantaged, "I'm so poor", nobody loves me. Curiously, self-pity is a negative emotion that can make you feel better (masochistic), so in a way it works like a drug.
KATE Thanks. Actually, on second thoughts I don't think I do feel this. It seems to be a 'poor-me-I'm-in-such-pain' type of thing, or a 'why is this happening to me', not my style at all.
WB http://www.ymaverick.com/vance/lawrence/self-pity.html
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/self-pity
http://en.thinkexist.com/keyword/self-pity/
KATE Thank you. I checked these out. I'm unsure whether I've felt self-pity in
the past, but the main thing is not to feel it in the future. I believe
I'll be ok with this one.
WB Good.
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KATE It is very difficult to describe pain but I will try next time.
WB You may already start to find words that describe the pain and then test if it fits when pain arises.
KATE It [the pain] does stay in the same place. I will try to be conscious of the parts of me that are not in pain. However it's not just the pain but the feeling of nausea that is difficult to deal with, especially if this escalates to vomiting (only rarely gets this far with me).
WB Yes, I agree. Nausea is more difficult to deal with than "pure" pain. My guess is that no cowmilk products and no wheat products will help in your case. Give it a try.
KATE I am always aware of the pain, its location, its severity, my breathing, my feeling of nausea - it has never been so bad that I have become the pain.
WB Good.
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KATE Wolfgang I thought in a previous email you had asked me to document what happened next time I got a migraine. I have done this, but now I cannot find where you asked me so I'm not sure if I 'dreamt' it. Could you let me know if you want this and if you do, I'll send it next time. Thanks.
WB Yes, as far as I remember, I've asked you to do this. Yes, please send it.
KATE [Description of migraine]
BW You write it in present terms. That's quite "fascinating" for the reader :) but no good for you ;) what i would like you to do is to rewrite the same and to use past term (no need to send it to me). You simply write the same in past terms very attentively, knowing that it had (!) happened a couple of days ago and that it doesn't influence anymore your life at present (and that it doesn't necessarily mean that you will relive it in future). Doing this you put it where it belongs: to the past.
WB From now on, please don't ever think anymore in generalizations (sometimes...) when you think of the pain.
You have the imigran, you know this and it works most of the time. Whenever you think of migraine you may refer to the last time it had (!) happened (day, time etc.) knowing that it belongs already to the past and that it doesn't influence your present.
What you learn here is to learn to focalize on present.
When you use past terms in thinking, it's not "real" anymore, and when you think of future, it's all hypothetical. (it might happen differently than forseen and all future planning presupposes that you don't die the next moment).
Past is past, it's finished. and future is "maybe", "not sure". the only reference which is a real one is the present.
Being present to what is present, is part of sr.
Btw, where has been (or was) sr when you had had (!) the pain you described above? (had had, pluperfect, is "hardcore" language/thinking :) it dissociates you completely from past pain. do you get that?)
KATE Yes I get the had had. My internal/external was present almost all the time I had had the pain - it was the only way I could record it in order to write it down.
Ouspensky
WB Did you read the Ouspensky book?
KATE I'm sure this book is a bed-time story because as soon as I try to read it I become very tired and my eyes close :) I'm two thirds of the way through but find it difficult reading.
WB Any questions?
KATE Not really but I did wonder if you agree with all his teachings? Like surrendering one's will to a teacher for example
WB Is it written like this in the book: "surrendering one's will to a teacher"? It is a delicate point because there's so much abuse of this these days (cults etc.). In most cases if you do not assume (!) to accept what he asks you to do or not to do, you might not be able to get yourself done. Identity is very clever to invent pretexts to not to do what needs to be done to get rid of itself (which is somehow logical), that without confidence in someone whom you trust (and follow his suggestions) you most probably might start turning round in circles from on a certain point without even recognizing it. The thing is to accept the teacher's suggestions, to try them out, presuming he knows more about the whole stuff that you yourself, presuming that he knows why he asks you to do (or don't do) something, and taking full responsibility for doing this. On this level, it's not different from any other teaching. When you learn how to drive a car, you also follow the rules and the suggestions of the teacher. A real teacher doesn't give orders; he suggests and observes; he'll never make you feel guilty for not having followed his suggestions. He knows that if you don't follow his suggestions, it might be more difficult for you next time to learn the lesson; certain necessary processes might take longer to get through, and that a further suggestion might be more difficult for you to accept.
I have written something more detailed on this but it's only in French and in German. Do you have a possibility to translate it? I'd like you to read it.
KATE Can you send it as an attachment? I know someone who may be able to translate German, but it's only a possibility so I don't want you to go to any trouble.
WB Eventually I will find someone to translate but I don't know when. Choose carefully the person who might translated it. (s)he might get strange thoughts about you. Here is the text (it's part of a file with other not yet published writings on different subjects like teacher, emotions, karma etc. this is the chapter on teacher:)
(Note: KATE was unable to get this text translated.)
KATE And having to teach what you have learnt before you can reach the next step of your own path.
WB I don't think this applies to everyone.
KATE I would like to read what you say. I must admit that in general I find it very difficult to get the full meaning from Ouspensky's book (about ic for example and self-remembering). Once you have explained it then I can go back and understand it better but not really at first pass. And he talks about many things that I don't understand and don't have any desire to understand at the moment with the cosmos and symbols etc.
WB Right, that's not important.
KATE If you have anything written in English that you think may be of interest (not in your book or on your web-site), I would really love to read it. Thank you.
WB Do you mean in general or concerning a special subject ?
KATE Not a special subject, but mainly in the area of understanding oneself. The ic for example, I have read many books on helping oneself but had not picked this up. Reading Ouspensky's book did not give me the understanding that I gained from your writing. Also the same with self-remembering. It is necessary to explain what it is not. I don't feel Ouspensky explains it very well at all. I found your emails with ‘Rocky helped me much more, together with your writings to me.
WB I also found that Ouspensky's explanations are not sufficient to understand these phenomena. Right now, I don't know about other books or articles on it. To get a better overall understanding of oneself, it's necessary to become more specific. to better understand yourself, you need to find topics that you want to understand better, topics that are an issue to you (not purely intellectually). If you find something, then please let me know.
KATE Ok I will let you know.
Feedback One Month After Start
WB I'd like to have a personal feed-back, an evaluation of how you live life now, after one month of conversation with me, compared to before. Doing this, you might automatically get ideas (or not) what else you might want to work on.
KATE There have been a few emotional upheavals within my family since writing to you. [Description withheld]
I felt my own pain of not being able to help someone I love and I accepted it. I don't know how I would have been without the work on myself but I strongly believe it has helped.
WB Yes, I'm sure. She's in unnecessary suffering, and for you not being able to help her and to accept that makes you feel "necessary suffering". Unnecessary suffering also means suffering from suffering. Necessary suffering also means to accept the unavoidable, to accept what is when nothing can be done.
KATE In general I am much calmer, I am more open to the acceptance of criticism, without immediately jumping to my own defence. If I start to feel irritated, I am conscious of it and don't allow it to escalate.
WB That's very good.
KATE I try not to voice minor criticisms - although this is one that needs constant work.
WB It's the other's opinion, and it's okay that he has it. Adopting it (or not) is your choice/responsibility. And if the other is upset because you don't adopt it, it's his "problem". a good way to reply is something like: "i will consider what you said" even if you know already that you won't adopt it. Make sure to continue to differentiate between the other (what/who he is) and what he says.
Stopping ic means to become 'self-referent'.
ec is to appreciate the other's opinion without necessarily adopting it. Self reference can also assume not being completely sure if one is right or wrong.
KATE Yes, I do live with uncertainty. Partly because of my poor memory I accept that I might have said or done something that I cannot remember. I also accept that I may have mis-heard someone and/or that I don't understand.
WB Yes, that doesn't disturb the other too much and you don't loose contact with him.
KATE Externally I think there is only a little difference. My partner has said that I am more relaxed and accepting. As said above I tend to talk less and think more before I do talk.
WB Good.
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WB How did you like the the Jourdain book?
KATE I very much enjoyed it. It gave me insight into someone who is realized. It was very interesting how he lived his life. One thing that struck me and surprised me was how ugly we are on the inside (even the most pure) for people who can 'see'. It felt a little like he had to distance himself from 'us' because to see us so clearly was terrible. I felt it was sad that we are so corrupt inside. How has it happened? Why should it be so?
WB I tried to explain this in my book. in order to be able to develop an identity we have to accept corruption. Without identity we would not be able to learn what is needed to become a responsible adult. We would all be autistics.
KATE Yes, I understand that we need to develop our identity but I still don't really understand why this process should corrupt us so much.
WB There is different degrees of corruption that probably depend partly on the environment in which the child grew up. Capitalism reinforces the example of corruption, especially during the last years (economically and politically). There's more and more corruption examples (value loss) in the media. the transmission of human values like sincerity, integrity and so on is the only way to get a less corrupted identity.
KATE I felt that it was like we are all in this great big mud hole. The hole is deep and has steep slippery sides. The mud is very rancid but because we live there we cannot smell it, we don't know any different. Some of us get a glimpse of being outside the hole, some of us get an urge to move towards the perimeter of the hole. We are born outside the hole but are drawn into it. When we die we leave the mud hole. Some people accidentally find themselves out of the hole when they nearly die. Some are able to stay out of the hole, others fall back in but know that there is a place 'out of the mud'. Those who accidentally found themselves out of the hole can tell others that 'out of the hole' exists but don't know how to help others get there. Those who worked their way to the edge and were then helped out can help others work their way to the edge where they may or may not be able to be helped out. As with all analogies it misses a lot but it helps me to understand a little.
WB Yes, I agree with all you just said, a brilliant metaphor.
How did you feel when you generated it?
KATE When I wrote it I felt good. I enjoy trying to understand something and then putting it into my own words. I enjoy writing for itself alone. I felt a little sad that we were in the mud but I'm still too deep within it myself to really be able to see it or smell it.
Since then, last night in fact, I had an insight into my use of words. It's all very well to explain it to myself in this way so that I can 'understand' it but the very putting it into words actually veils my understanding. My true understanding cannot be put into words. And when I put it into words, I box it, I wrap it up and put it away - 'now I understand' I say to myself in self-satisfaction. No, no, no I do not understand. It is something that I cannot truly understand while ever I'm still in the mud. It is a concept only, it may point the way but that's all it does.
WB Here an extract from my website:
My task will be to emphasize what is okay, the essential value, and to uncover the hang-ups, the original belief . Your task will be to integrate all this into your daily life activities.
In my teaching there is 2 basic directions: one is to affirm (go for) what is "right" and the other is to work on (get rid of) what is "wrong".
So far most of what you did with me is trying to get "right" what was/is "wrong". But the mudhole text is definitely "right". No need to to work on this. It comes directly from your essential value (ev). The only thing to do is to be vigilant, to pay attention in order to not to have it (mis)used by identity/ego. Your "now i understand" self satisfaction might be a first step to misuse but it's difficult for me to say. Feeling the good feeling itself is definitely not misuse. When it's pure there's a kind of humble gratitude that opens up, a gratitude to get the gift of getting access to an understanding that feels right. writing it down or telling me is okay. Indulging in it is not okay.
KATE Ok, I think I can tell the difference now. The initial good feeling is fine, I accept the gift. However dwelling on the good feeling is not ok.
You say these insights are probably coming from my e.v. and that feels good. I know it is necessary to get in touch with my e.v. but I wonder if it is necessary to define it in words. I just wondered as I seem to have a problem doing this.
WB No need to do anything. ev is already there waiting to express itself. The less identity is active the more ev unfolds. The things to do are:
* to validate (for yourself) when ev is active,
* to protect ev from being misused by ego.
KATE Ok
----
KATE I was reading my Awareness book again last night.
Suddenly I realized what he was saying. The words were not new it was about labeling things. I have gone through a period of trying not to label, of course as soon as I tried not to label, I did it. But suddenly last night I looked at the objects in front of me and I realized that I could look at something without labeling. And it was only when I tried to describe it that the labels popped up. And I saw how the description cut it up into little pieces, segmented it and didn't describe the real thing at all. And I could see what Sailor Bob had been trying to get at. And I could see how anyone who speaks of God is lying - something I had always had trouble understanding, now it was clear. Once I speak of anything, it's lost, I'm in the map and a map is only the map, it can never be the territory. Words I have read and re-read before, now suddenly I understand. It's wonderful.
WB That must have been another contact with your ev.
-----
WB Do you read from time to time in the Nisargadatta book? What are the effects?
KATE I haven't read Nisargadatta for about 3 weeks. I will start again. When I did read him it was weird because I thought I had understood things at the first reading but when I read it again it was like I understood it for the first time. There seemed to be so much that he was saying that I hadn't picked up before. Sorry I can't give you specifics because it was a while ago but I definitely got a greater understanding.
I'm not sure if you've already picked this up but I have a very poor memory for detail. When I've just read a book (novel or serious), I can tell you very little about it - I'm just left with an overall impression. I've often read novels twice only realizing half way through that I've read it before.
WB That's okay. no need to work on this. And no need to remember whatsoever on the Nisargadatta reading. Just read some passages from time to time (in sr mode) without the project to remember anything.
KATE Ok I will carry on reading him - he always has something to say to me.
WB okay.
****
(A few days since last email)
Laughter
WB What made you lol (laugh out loud) last time ?
Kate When I read your question yesterday morning I couldn't remember the last time I laughed out loud and I thought perhaps I don't do this often. So yesterday I watched myself and I found I do it all the time. Yesterday (a day when I look after my grandson) I laughed with him several times, a couple of times with my daughter, and a few times with my partner in the evening.
WB Great!!!
Kate I wondered if you meant more of an uncontrollable laughter. These fits of laughter are usually about something totally silly. I get a picture in my mind and it just sends me off into fits of laughter, often I can't stop laughing long enough to explain why I'm laughing - trying to explain it just makes me worse.
WB Great, that's part of your ev. Did you laugh a lot when you were a small child?
Kate …I don’t remember but I probably laughed as much as other small children.
Kate Could you tell me why you asked this question?
WB That's an intricate question.
On the overall level, I usually don't know why I write or suggest this or that; it just comes up from my ev, like an intuition.
Kate Ok, I accept that.
WB Of course, I like laughing a lot, and during our meetings we spend much time in laughing.
Kate In this event I would probably laugh with you.
WB During our exchanges, there was not enough lol for me, so I wanted to know more about your "competence" on this :)
Kate I rarely laugh out loud when I'm on my own. Usually only when I read or hear (on the radio or tv) something that I find extremely funny. When exchanging emails with you (or anyone else) I am more likely just to smile. :)
----
Kate This morning ev was active as I walked along the beach. Last night I read your website and also read some Nisargadatta. This morning as I walked, it came to me that memories are not real, they exist only in my mind when I remember them and give them form. Many years ago I tried a hash cookie. I remember sitting on a seat and not knowing whether something had actually happened or if I had just thought it had happened - I couldn't tell the difference. This morning it came to me that there really is no difference in the now, both are just thoughts. We cannot change the past but we can change our memory of it because it is just a thought, a brain pattern that we call a memory. We give it substance, we say "it was real", "it did happen". Yes, it was real but it is no longer real, now it is just a thought.
WB Right.
Kate And as I walked with this understanding I watched the sea with new sight. I felt the waves wash over my feet and I felt part of the sea, I smiled it felt wonderful. And I had a second understanding, as soon as I try and 'think' of being one with all things, I am separate. But when I just allow myself to 'feel' I am one, then I am one. It's like being ‘one with nature except it's with everything and the picture is whatever my eyes are seeing. When I returned to the house, everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. All my movements were heavy. As soon as I had a conversation I lost it but even now its residue remains, I sit here with a smile on my face, and a feeling of fullness in my heart.
WB One of the most difficult things to learn is not to become attached to the good feeling that ev can generate. Oneness is not necessarily linked with ecstatic feelings. Oneness is basically nothingness (including all possible feelings).
Kate Ok I understand. I don't believe I will get attached. My search, though hard to define, is not a search for pleasant feelings, much as I enjoy them. It is more a search for reality, for truth - including both the pleasant and the unpleasant.
WB … It’s important when you discover your ev that you don’t get attached to it. This has happened before. …
It's like a teenager falling in love: very difficult for him/her to not to dwell in it and to keep contact with common sense. So one also has to learn to let go the nice fulfillment feeling (not easy but indispensable).
Kate I understand. However as any of my friends and family would confirm, lots of common sense is one of my virtues/failings :) I am very much a 'feet on the ground' type of person. Possibly because of my upbringing.
WB Anyway, as it's a trap for many, don't ever tell me I didn't warn you :)
Kate Ok, and I accept that it may be a trap for me too so I will watch for it.
WB Memory is a constituting part of identity. When identity falls apart then memory also starts "leaking". In that respect it's a good sign. On the identity level, memory maintains the coherence of the identity. It is past oriented and consumes a lot of energy. When you start living life here and now, what happens is a detachment from what you think you are (which is based on memories of your past).
Kate Yes, I can relate to this.
WB So what makes it that one can remain functional when memory disappears? Memory doesn't disappear but it becomes nearly impossible to remember something that is not related to a present issue.
Kate That would be interesting.
WB You already referred to poor memory. Please check if this could be related to what I wrote above.
Kate It does relate to it a little, for example if someone asks me how to spell something then I find it very difficult to remember and yet when I'm writing my spelling is very good. Also the same with programming syntax I can't remember until I'm doing it, and I cannot give directions how to get somewhere but I can drive there ok myself. So once I have learnt something then I can 'forget' it because it has sort of become 'hard-wired', it's like my body remembers rather than my mind.
WB Yes, my terms are contextualized memory (referring to present circumstances) and identity related memory (based on past circumstances).
Kate And what about things like meeting someone and then a few weeks later bumping into them and not knowing that I have met them before. I guess that part is just poor memory.
WB I'm not sure it's poor memory. This might happen when you have not been in ec when you met the person a few weeks ago.
Kate Yes, that's possible. I am very unobservant. I don't notice when people have changed their hair colour or shaved off their beard. Although in general I do seem to have a problem remembering faces.
WB Without identity one can remain functional but one has to learn to trust that the necessary information from the past will pop up when it's needed. For example, being in the kitchen, and having the project to take the car, it is possible that one doesn't "know" anymore how to ride a car until one is sitting in it and doing it.
WB Is that clear enough? If not, please ask.
Kate Yes, I understand what you are saying. You wrote about this in one of your emails on your web-site. I know what you are saying but I cannot really imagine it - I think it is something one has to experience to really understand.
WB Yes, and it's good to have that information in advance (may help you to be a bit less baffled when it happens :)
Kate Ok, now that will be interesting! :)
WB Well, it's not as absurd as it may seem. When looking closer to it, all future acts are based on the belief that past learnings will function.
Kate Yes, I understand this. Lots of things are taken for granted on a day to day basis.
WB No-identity is disconnected to past learning-beliefs (although past learnings are still potentially available), so how can one know that one knows when there's no more belief?
Usually it functions (sometimes it doesn't) but one never knows unless it happens.
Kate I can see that this would enable one to see everything fresh instead of through a glass clouded by memories.
---
Acceptance
WB No, it's not necessary to define it [ev] in words. But it's necessary to not to hinder ev from generating words when this is it's intention (as it was/is in your case). EV finds its own ways to unfold; what is needed is: not to get in the way.
ev is your own uniqueness. Please re-read what I've written in my book concerning ev. on my website there's a search function where you can look for "essential value" and "e.v.".
Kate Yes, I did this. And last night after reading it, I felt from what was written that it was important to identify my essential value. This morning however it feels different - but then nothing feels too important right now, except the moment.
WB Right, whatever the moment makes you feel (from worst to best, all needs to
be accepted).
Kate Yes I understand. However acceptance has a different flavour when it's an acceptance because there is nothing else to do but accept, and when it’s a pleasure to accept.
WB No, the acceptance I speak of is the same in both cases !!!
WB Please meditate on this and tell me what that does to you.
Kate It seems that it is easier just to accept when the feeling is bad, when it is good perhaps there is some attachment to it.
WB This is still not yet quite it. The quality of acceptance that is needed in work on oneself is the same, no matter if you accept something pleasant or something unpleasant or something neutral. There's a wide range of feelings from very pleasant over neutral/indifferent to very unpleasant. Acceptance is on a higher logical level (although not dissociated from) than all possible feelings.
This acceptance might bring up detachment and equanimity (not indifference) which is close to nondual perception and related to sr.
Kate Acceptance sort of distances me a little, the pain is still happening to me but somehow I am not a part of it.
WB Yes.
Kate With pleasure, I want to get caught up in it, I resist that standing a little apart.
WB Okay. It's a good idea to "cultivate" acceptance in "regular" situations (instead of extreme ones like pain/ecstasy).
Kate Ok, does this mean that while observing myself on a regular basis I remind myself that I am accepting what is happening?
I presume I must learn to watch what passes whatever it is and not 'fall into it'. It feels like this would make me less emotional, a little 'colder' than I currently am. Is this correct?
WB Yes, that's most probably true.
It might challenge your female identity. Female identity is frequently based on expression of emotions, being emotional. "I am emotional, thus I'm a female."
Kate I might say this a little differently, "I am female and therefore allowed to show my emotions" :) Although in general I don't show my emotions.
WB Ev expression of emotions is spontaneous, popping up, present related, not sex-related.
Kate I thought about this and felt that most of my emotional expression is spontaneous and I honestly don't think any of it is gender-related. But then I'm perhaps more of the 'strong' female type. I don't get upset easily.
WB Identity expression of emotions is related to a (often hidden) personal interest (attracting attention, showing up etc.)
Kate I presume you meant "showing off". Yes I agree, but this is not my personality type, I dislike drawing attention to myself. Also I think this is not necessarily a female thing, but perhaps you are not making that inference here.
Kate However getting back to the being a little colder, less emotional than normal. I was not really thinking of how I would be viewed by others but how I would feel inside myself, particularly whether pleasure would have the same depth. But I think you have answered this question too - in the negative.
Kate I will work on just accepting pleasurable events, but I think this will be harder to do. As you suggested earlier I will use 'regular' events as my training ground.
[WB This is still not yet quite it. The quality of acceptance that is needed in work on oneself is the same, no matter if you accept something pleasant or something unpleasant or something neutral. There's a wide range of feelings from very pleasant over neutral/indifferent to very unpleasant. Acceptance is on a higher logical level (although not dissociated from) than all possible feelings.
This acceptance might bring up detachment and equanimity (not indifference) which is close to nondual perception and related to sr.
(Repeated for Clarity)
Kate Yes, I understand but I think it needs work on my part.
WB Please tell me more on what is your understanding of this and why you think that it needs work on your part. (Put aside my other suggestion concerning work on less extreme emotions.)
Kate Well if I take an example of when I went to the snow with my family. I loved going down the toboggan slope with my grandson (he's 3). We had a great time, we screamed and shouted and there was falling off and much laughter. I didn't observe myself and I didn't think about acceptance, I was totally absorbed in the doing, in the pleasure and the joy of it all.
WB The observer and the observed became one in this kind of scenario. This is a merging of two ev. You're in ec.
Kate When I read "this is a merging of two ev" a strong emotion rose up in me, it was only momentarily but it was like intense joy and sadness mixed together.
It's good to know that this is 'ok'.
Kate If I read a good book I get totally lost in it, I'm not standing apart accepting the pleasure of reading, I forget that I'm reading, I fall into the story.
WB That's what is called falling in trance; you forget the surroundings and are absorbed.
Kate Yes, this is true.
Kate These are two totally different examples but in both case I forget myself.
WB It counts only in the second.
Kate Ok.
Kate In one way I could say that I do accept because I'm not fighting the situation.
WB In the first example there was ec and ec is sr when with the other. The second there wasn't sr.
Kate ok.
Kate But if I compare this to my acceptance of pain it is totally different. I feel that my acceptance of pain is probably correct because as you said it brings up a certain detachment, a feeling of equanimity.
WB This is not the detachment/equanimity I mean. In your example it seems to me that you refer to an inner state
Kate Yes, I agree, I believe you are right.
WB What I refer to is not an inner state but rather a detachment of inner states.
Kate This is not happening for me.
Kate I feel that if I work on accepting all the same, whether pleasure, pain or in between, that I will distance myself from the things that I currently lose myself in (including uncontrollable laughter).
WB No, this will not be the case.
Kate Ok
Kate I feel that having a sense of detachment will make me feel less passionate, 'colder' within myself. It's fine to feel less a part of the pain, but not so fine when it means feeling less a part of the joy also. But I think that this is what is required in order for acceptance to be the same in all cases.
WB No, but let's take it from another angle.
Kate ok
WB What I'd like you to understand: a particular understanding of acceptance/equanimity/detachment which is always the same regardless if it's pleasant or unpleasant. To get a better understanding of the phenomenon, please do not compare (or refer to) past situations.
WB Let's try it this way:
Be in sr now, right this moment. Accept what is and what might come whatsoever that might be.
Continue reading when you're ready.
Kate I did this.
WB
You may live something extremely pleasant in 15 minutes, or someone phones and tells you that one of your daughters has had an accident.
Accept both eventualities in the same way. Live the two different inner states (one pleasant, the other unpleasant) and at the same time accessing a non-state of acceptance/detachment/equanimity. Doing this, the pleasant one is not necessarily less or more pleasant, same with the unpleasant one.
The accepting I'm talking of, always happens in the present (and hopefully, in future).
It is not necessary to "succeed" the exercise. It would be enough to get a glimpse of what I mean by acceptance/detachment /equanimity. And an understanding of what it doesn't mean.
Kate Yes, I got a glimpse of what it means and what it doesn't mean.
WB I'm relieved :)
Kate I thought you might be :)
WB :) :) :)
Kate I think I now understand and I know I am not accepting in the true sense. Knowing that I am not doing it is the first step but how to get there is something else. It doesn't appear to be something I can 'learn' to do, it's not a mountain to be climbed no matter how steep, it seems more like learning to fly and without wanting to sound defeatist, from where I am standing, it also seems just as impossible (for me).
WB Yes, that's exactly it (refers to all wrote in the last paragraph).
And here's what makes it possible: the ultimate "no-mind-tool" for this is: vigilance. This very moment. Beyond inner states. Not knowable but can be identified. Don't try too hard. Let the body be relaxed.
Kate Ok
Kate What do I do now? Beside acceptance :)
WB Be vigilant. Continue sr and ec and avoiding ic.
Kate Ok
Kate Nisargadatta said about acceptance "letting come what comes and go what goes. You are not what happens you are to whom it happens. Ultimately even the observer you are not."
I think I need to meditate on this.
WB Please read Nisargadatta while in sr and try not to analyse.
Kate Ok
----
Self Remembering
[WB What I refer to [acceptance] is not an inner state but rather a detachment of inner states.
Kate This is not happening for me]
(Repeated for clarity)
WB It has been happening to you when you tried to be in sr and when you had glimpses of sr; it's just that you didn't identify it as being this, and usually it doesn't create memory so it's difficult to say that it was present. The thing is to recognize it when it's present, here and now, this is the only way to "know" (non intellectually) that it's it. It refers to nothingness, absence of what is known or knowable.
Kate This morning when I walked along the beach I dropped into sr. I can go for a few days without this happening but it has happened a few times now.
I asked myself, can I accept all things now, and I tried to think of one of my children being in an accident but I couldn't think (feel) it. I thought, I can think of the future because I thought I will write to you, but when I tried again to think of my child in an accident, it wouldn't come. So I left it and just walked.
Then I thought I do feel the part of the sea and instinctively I looked down at my feet as the waves washed over them - and I had a surprise, they weren't me. I could feel myself from the inside, the waves touching my feet, the coldness, and the sun fairly hot on my left ear and I felt I was inside my body, but yet when I looked at it from the outside, somehow it wasn't me. It was a most peculiar sensation. When I got home I went straight to a mirror to look at my face and it was the same, it was there and I recognised it as me, but at the same time it wasn't me. I was inside my head looking through my eyes into the mirror but I wasn't my face.
WB This is definitely sr, maybe more.
Kate It's all very exciting. This morning particularly, it was so strange. I sort of think that I'm not meant to get too excited about it but I am anyway.
WB Try to be neutral and considerate at the same time (concerning what has happened on the beach).
Kate Yes, that's fine - memory of it is almost gone now anyway.
Kate What was so good about it was that it was unexpected - there was no way I had thought myself into it (if that makes sense), because I didn't know about it until it was there.
WB Yes, it makes sense, that's how I understood it.
WB Meanwhile you probably have looked several times into mirrors; is it still the same, that you just see a face without the face being identified as yours? When you look at someone else, is there a tendency to have the same strangeness (him or her not really to be identified, maybe even not being real, blurred?)
Kate I lost it almost as soon as I got home. I was so fascinated with myself, my body, that I never thought to check on my partner when I first saw him, and then I fell back into 'normality'.
Kate I know I was in it for about half an hour on the beach because, although I couldn't tell time-wise how long it lasted (which also feels a bit weird), I knew where I was on the beach when it started and how long it takes me to walk home from that point.
Kate Now when I look at my hands I feel an ownership that I didn't have then. It's like now I am my body on the outside as well as the inside.
WB Is that still present?
Kate Sorry, I probably didn't explain this very well. This is the normal me, feeling that my hands (and the rest of my body) belong to me, that I have ownership. Same when I look in a mirror it's all back to normal.
WB Okay.
WB Please continue to share your observations. I've not forgotten the other threads and will come back but for the time being I'd like you to stay with sr and vigilance; no need for anything else. You may read Nisargadatta from time to time when you feel like it.
WB Please also tell me if you're able to manage your daily work "correctly".
Kate I will definitely let you know when anything happens. Work's fine. It's hard to get motivated sometimes but that's pretty normal.
WB Okay. Motivation might temporarily completely disappear but it's necessary to continue doing what needs to be done on the functional level.
Kate Yes, no problem - the business has to continue and I'm quite firm with myself about getting things done when they need doing.
WB Good.
(A few days later)
Kate It's not just a lack of motivation. Yesterday I had a real aversion to doing my work, which is strange because I enjoy developing. However, once I got into it I was fine.
WB Now stop all exercising, no sr until I tell you.
Kate Ok. :( (Is this the sign for a sad face?) - just kidding
WB It could be that at times you're very much absorbed in what's going on in the present, like being drawn to here and now. All this might happen automatically. Ec is fine to do when with others.
Just be a witness to whatever happens in daily life and write it down when you feel it's useful (for me/for you).
Kate Ok, I'll do this.
WB Do not do anything to re-live what has happened on the beach. Do not think about it intentionally (if it happens automatically, like a flashback, then it's okay). Only read Nisargadatta if it happens automatically, that you are drawn to it. Try to live a normal life, as if there was never anything that longed for more. I know this is not easy but give it a try. What is important is to not to interfere with what is evolving.
Kate Ok I'll just live my normal life.
WB Continue sharing your observations with me.
It might take weeks or months to digest this but maybe it won't in your case. I never can tell in advance; it's important that I get frequent feedback so that I can tell you how to manage all this.
Kate I'm hoping that this means you don't think everything will just stop.
WB No :)
It's just that when the real thing tends to start, it's necessary to not to stop it by doing what you did to get it going. If you understand what I mean... :)
Kate Yes - you don’t' keep turning the key in the ignition once the car has started :)
WB Yes, that's it :)
Kate I'll let you know if anything is happening or not as the case may be.
WB Okay. If there anything like a vague strangeness, or a vague background sound or feeling, that's okay; just remain with it. There also might be moments when you feel like closing your eyes and just be drawn inside. That's fine, too.
Kate Nothing much happening here.
WB This has to be accepted like everything else.
continue here
