Can you give us a brief history of your background and the path of your personal evolution?

My personal evolution started in 1970. At that time I studied at the University of Frankfurt, Germany and participated actively in the declining student's revolt. Like most young people at that time, I was disappointed that the society remained with all it's suffering and did not move towards a new humanism. It was a great shock to realize one day that this suffering existed in myself as well. This shock was followed by the first conscious existential question in my life: "Who am I, what is the meaning of my life? As long as I have not found the answer to these questions, I cannot live for any other goal." These questions were the beginning of my search for the Ultimate. I was 22 years old. From that time onwards, this search constituted the center of my private and professional life. My first teacher was an Indian yoga teacher called Mahindra. He was a very nice man, and he transmitted to me many "secret" yoga techniques that he had learned from different Indian masters. And I did my best, with a lot of personal effort, to reach that famous state called "Samadhi". Since two years of hard work yielded no results, I decided to investigate other spiritual approaches and joined for a short time several groups like theosophists etc. Then I decided to travel to the south of Germany to visit more spiritual centers, and in one of them I met someone who just came back from India and who talked about a "supermaster" called Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. After reading some papers (transcriptions of Rajneesh's lectures), I felt very much attracted to meet him. So I decided to sell all I had and to buy an airplane ticket to Bombay.

To be short, the relationship with Rajneesh was a very intense one, and I experienced the insights that I was longing for. It was like all my efforts lead to the results I had always longed for. For six weeks I culminated in being in a indescribable very blissful state. Was that the ultimate Samadhi-state? I went to see him and asked if what I experienced was enlightenment. He answered very gently: "How can you miss when the sun comes into darkness?" and the blissful state vanished. Instantly I was back to normal. I knew then that there was still a lot of work to be done, and that I had done all I could and that I had to be patient. So I waited, went back to Germany and started being a group-trainer for all kinds of personal development stuff (hypnotherapy, tantra, dynamic meditation etc.). Some years later I decided to settle in the south of France where I heard of NLP. At that time I was quite frustrated because my principle objective, liberation, had not happened, and I had almost lost all hope that one day it would. To me it was as if I had done everything I could have done. So I read the available NLP-books and decided to attend to an NLP training. My thoughts were something like: "There's no more inspiration left and, there is nothing else I can do to become liberated. Why not learn and practice NLP to have a good and maybe even better time until something pops up that may help me to advance in my existential quest?" I followed the training and started doing therapy at the same time. Then, I think it was two years after having finished my Master Practitioner, someone called Yvan Amar showed up and pretended to live that famous liberation I was longing for. Also, he offered something that was always very important to me, personal contact. So I went to see him and we talked about many things, but he must have felt that I didn't really believe anymore in my own liberation. He just told me: "Watch that the small flame won't go out". Two or three nights later, I woke up experiencing a dream in which I was skiing downhill at the speed of 70m/h. Then my head bumped into a big branch of a tree causing a kind of explosion in my head. The next day nothing was like before: confusion, nothingness, knowing and not knowing what was going on and off. That was the beginning of a three year purification process during which Yvan was a very competent friend. I went through my own Original Belief Process. At the end, everything became silent. That silence has never left me since.

What first attracted you to NLP?

Basically, I was fascinated by the approach of using language to provoke change on the structural level of the human nervous system, especially the meta model of language. That was completely new and innovative in the field of psychology. Also, I was very much attracted by the talks of Richard Bandler and by the writings of Alfred Korzybski. Later only, when it came to submodalities and beliefs, I discovered that NLP could also be used for the exploration of the deeper structures of human beings.

How did you use belief work to explore the deeper structures of human beings and can you explain what you mean by, "The Original Belief"?

According to NLP presuppositions, belief systems are the most hidden, the most unconscious parts of human psychology. As I always wanted to know what happens "behind the screen", during and after my NLP-training I did quite a lot of investigation in order to become conscious of more and more of my unconscious beliefs. What struck me most was that one day I discovered that none, really none of he beliefs that I had uncovered were my own: I had adapted them from others, from what I had read and from what I had heard. All of the opinions that I had on the different subjects of life were borrowed, second hand ones. The next question I asked myself was: if none of my beliefs are mine, then what is it that creates the belief that I believe in my beliefs? At the same time I had the intuition that the answer to this question would bring me closer to what I desired most: the understanding of the origins of human functioning. So I presupposed that there is a basic belief system behind all the beliefs, opinions, ideologies and concepts which makes it that people believe in their beliefs. This basic belief system, the "Original Belief", is to identity what the trunk is for a tree: the central element.

How did you use NLP in your search for the ultimate? and what are some of the NLP tools and skills that were part of this process?

At first, I didn't join NLP with my search for the ultimate. With one exception, though. During the Master Practitioner training, there were three days with a trainer who himself had been trained by one of the early NLP-trainers named Gene Early. He came up with an exercise that I still use today to bring up what I call the Essential Value.  It was a major milestone for me to feel deeply who I am. Much later, in experimenting with another NLP-trainer new exercises on beliefs, all of the sudden and quite unexpected I came in contact within myself with what I now call "the Original Belief". I had the intuition at that time that I had touched something very important, but only years later I was able to formulate it.

Can you describe the difference between what you teach and what one might expect from a more traditional NLP training?

Every trainer has his/her own style, of course. and every trainer has his unique criteria and priorities. My criteria are that I only take students whose priorities are clearly determined: "Who am I?" or "What can I do to live liberation?"

Is the Original Belief Process open to anyone?

I always suggest reading my book first. Going through the Original Belief Process needs thorough emotional and mental preparation. Much of what can be learned in a regular NLP-training is a good preparation unless the trainer leans too much on the intellectual level of teaching NLP.

Can you describe the pre-sensory state?

First, it's not a state. If it were one, it could be described. Second, it cannot be described as it's definition is that it's the indescribable, the unnamable. Those who are capable to perceive right-now-this-very-moment all that which cannot be described, may get a glimpse of it.

Is it happiness?

It's neither happiness nor unhappiness.

If it is not about happiness or feeling good, what is it?

It cannot be described and it cannot be experienced. Happiness and feeling good can be experienced. Pre-sensory perception may open up when the strong urge to get to know what life is all about leads you beyond your Original Belief. What may help is the presupposition that there is something in life that has an even higher value than feeling good or professional/personal success.

Since you have fully established yourself in the pre-sensory state, what has changed for you?

First and again, it is not a state. Second, I would never say that I'm FULLY established in pre-sensory perception. Third, it is impossible to ESTABLISH oneself in pre-sensory perception. Fourth, it is impossible to establish ONESELF in pre-sensory perception. Pre-sensory is out of time, and there is neither a possibility of measuring it nor is there anything to attain as it's already there. Yet, none of the mental tools inherent to humans is capable to grasp it. You asked: "So what has changed for you?". Once I was asked during a conference: "When you think of the life you lived before, how would you describe it?" It took me some time to go back to what my life was like before and I answered: "Compared to what it is now, it was hell."

What do you mean "it was hell?" What has changed? What specifically has changed for you?

It was hell compared to what it's now. Hell is like a dream. When you dream, you sometimes have very beautiful and exalting dreams and there are also nightmares. If one could choose, one would always have nice dreams and one would never have nightmares. But the dream-state always remains a dream-state. My basic aim was, not to remain in the dream-state even if NLP provides you with tools to minimize nightmares and to maximize pleasant dreams. My basic aim was to wake up from the dream. You asked: "what specifically has changed for you?" I do not seek anything anymore. My existential quest has come to an end. Also, I am no longer interested in craving nice and pleasant inner states. Whatever inner state comes up, I'm okay with it. Last but not least, I'm able not to believe anymore in my beliefs. Believing in one's belief is hell compared to not believing in one's beliefs. It doesn't matter if the belief is a favorable one or not. And when I have a bad time, I do not suffer anymore from it.

If pre-sensory perception is "out of time" and not measurable, can this be learned? How?

No, it cannot be learned. To have access to this perception, one has to unlearn. Let me explain. You have learned a lot of good and valuable stuff in your life that helps you to manage life in a more or less satisfactory way. This, of course, need not be unlearned. What has to be unlearned is basically "believing in beliefs". In order to do this, you may listen for a couple of weeks to your internal dialogue. That's where your beliefs, concepts, opinions and so on are coded. Whenever you detect an opinion or belief, what you can do is, to do as if you did not believe in this your very opinion on the subject. To do this properly requires that you observe your internal dialogue constantly. If you do this for some time, then by and by you get to know how to unlearn believing in your beliefs. The more you advance in this unlearning process, the bigger the chances that once in a while pre-sensory perception might pop up.

Do you experience unpleasant emotions?

Yes.

What makes you happy?

There's so many things that make me happy every day, for example, I'm happy when I'm on my own, I'm happy when my child comes back home, I'm happy when there's good news and so on.

Sad?

What makes me really sad is when I see a child suffering.

Angry?

I might get angry when someone tries to fool me.

Do you ever experience anxiety or fear?

There's two basic kinds of fear. The one I call "instinctive" fear is a normal physiological reaction when there's a real outside danger. It's like a sort of an alarm when there's something threatening - for example when you suddenly hear someone smashing your frontdoor. Or the instinctive fear of a mother who's child is not supposed to eat milk products and who is obliged to transform her fear into alertness. This kind of fear is quite useful. Then there is another kind of fear which is the fear that humans create when they hallucinate or represent future or present threatening events. Whenever such hallucinations pop up within me, I am able to not believe in their existence. I know that it's my own mind that hallucinates. So, I do experience these fears and anxieties, but only for a part of a second, and then I know what to do to not let these fears expand in my nervous system.

What is important to you?

To fulfill my obligations at best.

What do you feel is something life still has to teach you? If one lives pre-sensory perception and that is the end, what is after that?

There are situations where I'm caring, others where I'm learning, yet others when I'm listening. And there are situations where I make mistakes and where I misunderstand. All this is part of life. The ultimate lesson in life is to learn humility, not once and forever, but again and again.

Do you design and build your internal states?

No. Whatever internal state is there at a given moment, it's okay. Internal states have become insignificant.

Insignificant?! What about maintaining resourceful states?

Whatever I do I do, but I don't know why I do what I do. I am not concerned with my inner states. Essential Value is always resourceful, no matter what inner state is present.

Could you elaborate on the difference between Original Belief and the Essential Value?

Coming to the end of one's personal evolution, to die to one's identity before dying physically is the greatest challenge in human life. It is a two-folded process: fertilizing the real (the Essential Value) and declining (or overcoming) the false (the Original Belief) or the "false core" according to Dr. Stephen Wolinsky). To resume, Original Belief is the most hidden and the most unpleasant core belief that has been installed in our nervous system during childhood. It brings up the illusion of being or having a separate identity: me here and you and the table there. On the functional level it is necessary to separate 'me' from 'you' and the table, but the fundamental error and the source of all human conflicts is just this confusion of logical levels: we believe that the other and the things we perceive are separate from us, but in reality they aren't. All that exists is originally linked with each other, is out of the same substance. But as long as we're not what is called "liberated", we cannot perceive that all that exists is out of the same substance: not only pencils and hats, also life and death, suffering and ecstasy, red and green.

30 seconds pause.

I've called "Essential Value" the most precious jewel that we possess within ourselves. This value of all values is hidden in all human beings; the grail, the best of the best that slumbers in everyone, waiting for its awakening. Let me read you an extract of my book: "Existential questions find their answers in Essential Value. When its expression impregnates all life, the questions and answers disappear. For the person who becomes the living expression of his/her Essential Value there are multiple implications. Since it brings us back to our profound vocation, it automatically leads to a commitment towards ourselves. Contrary to criteria, which motivate or demotivate, there is no longer a question of stimulants -- the person who expresses this value accomplishes his/her existential duty without asking (him/herself) any questions. It isn't a question of whether s/he wants to or not, whether s/he is motivated or not. The unearthing of Essential Value is an existential event, that goes straight to the heart of human nature. It's an explosive episode that, temporarily, puts into perspective all the criteria for which we have lived just until now, and which came from what we can call 'personal interest'. Essential Value refers to a level not only of recognition of self, but simultaneously of recognition of existence, of life, of creation. We go through a feeling of great, joyous humility from the instant where personal value is linked with the value of all that exists. It's in this feeling of humility that personal motivation is transformed into existential duty. This duty is not encountered as a constraint, but as an obvious fact, totally natural; as an unforced 'obligation', without any expectations of results. What remains is the action itself, devoid of all personal interest."

Here we meet the source of all human-ness incarnated in an individual man or woman. All expressions of the Essential Value are accompanied by a (child-like) innocence and playful joy.

Also, is working on only one of them at the expense of the other lead to an incomplete understanding?

Yes it does. First let's imagine that work on himself has taken someone beyond his/her Original Belief, and that (s)he lives in the awareness of what I've called "pre-sensory perception" and that at the same time the Essential Value has not opened up. (this is, of course, an extreme and hypothetical example.) One could think that the work is done. Nothingness has become the center of your being. And yet, this is an incomplete "enlightenment". Identity has been recognized as a myth, so what else could be there to be achieved? The answer has been given by a Zen master: "When an ordinary man attains enlightenment he is a sage; when a sage attains enlightenment he is an ordinary man."

The Essential Value flowers when Original Belief is no more, but going beyond Original Belief does not automatically fertilize the seed of Essential Value.

Let's now imagine someone who has come in contact with his Essential Value and who has not worked on overcoming his Original Belief: the seed of his/her Essential Value remains a seed as long as separating identity is present. Maybe some roots are growing, but that's all. Only the abolishing of identity prepares the soil for the grain of Essential Value to find fertile ground in order to spread healthy roots and to develop fruit: the creative expression of the uniqueness of the person concerned.

What is the purpose of your life?

I guess this is a question referring to the existential part of life. As on the existential level I do not think in terms of purpose, I refuse to reply.

Why won't you reply to that question?

I gave the answer already: as on the existential level I do not think in terms of purpose.

Is there a purpose or a meaning to life?

I don't think there is an overall purpose. Everybody determines his/her own personal purpose.

Why do you do what you do?

This is too general a question. I could answer to the question "Why do you reply to my questions?" that's what I'm doing right now.

Why do you teach your methodology of NLP?

NLP tools are part of my teaching. I teach them because they are useful for those who desire to go through the "Original Belief Process". The overall motivation to teach is the joy of sharing.

Why would a person want to embark on the path to liberation?

Something must happen in a life of a person that brings up the insight that liberation is not only possible but also achievable for him.

If you could change anything in life, what would you change?

Again, that's too general a question. If there's anything to change, I can only change something in a specific context where I am personally involved.

Would you end world hunger or provide housing for the homeless? (I know this is a hypothetical question.)

I'm neither in a position that allows me to take part in resolving general society problems nor do I have acquired any competence that would allow me to talk about this subject.

What are your plans for the future?

All my future plans are hypothetical. The basic hypotheses of all my future planning is: if I will be alive, I shall do this or that. Please be more specific.

Are you going to continue this work with people on the Original Belief Process?

Yes.

What is the biggest obstacle in the existential quest?

There's no general answer to this question. Sometimes I have an intuition on someone when I know him/her for some time. Usually my answer indicates the next step for the other. But I tell him only when I get the feeling that s/he is capable to digest (and not vomit :) my answer.